Tigers Jaw on Change, Burnout, and Getting Sick of the Camera

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Today's newsletter: Tigers Jaw released a great new record last week, Lost on You; it picks up right where 2021's I Won't Care How You Remember Me left off, and I honestly think that these two records are cementing them as one of the most consistent bands in indie rock right now. I hopped on a call with Ben Walsh and Brianna Collins a few months ago to talk through the band's ever-changing lineup and how they arrived at this point, and now the convo is here for you to read. Check it out:

This is your guys' first record in five years. Let's chat through how it all came together.
Brianna: We finished recording our last record in August of 2019 with the idea that it would come out spring 2020. That obviously didn't happen. We had to adjust to putting that record out in 2021 while not really wanting to wait any longer—and then we weren't able to play shows. It was unprecedented times for us, where by the time we were able to finally start touring and playing shows, it had already been a year since the record had been out and two years since we'd finished recording. I try not to think about how time moved from 2020 to now, because it freaks me out too badly. It feels like five seconds and 10 years at the same time.

We definitely were ready to make new music, especially in the last two years when we started getting together to demo. We did pre-production for this record in multiple stages just whenever we could because we were still touring. We were also trying to do a new record at this moment in our lives where we're still trying to tour, and we also have jobs. Some of us have kids, or we're going to have kids. I definitely it could've been sooner, because we'd been putting out records more routinely. But we did what we could with the pandemic, and I'm glad that we didn't rush, because now I do feel like I'm getting over the PTSD of putting out the last record in the pandemic. There's so much that we're able to actually do, where it's not this whole lead-up to it coming out and then it can't be what you thought it was. I'm clearly excited, because it's been a while.

Obviously, when you guys released the last record—tough time to put out new music in general.
Ben: Yeah, we were cut off from being able to tour, so already it was not a normal rollout for us. Right from the jump, it was like, "Okay, we got to figure out a different way to get this music in front of people." Touring has always been such a big part of our band and who we are. It feels so cathartic to make a record and then be able to play those songs live in front of people. Being deprived of that was tricky to navigate.

We pivoted towards trying to make as much cool video content as we possibly could, which was really awesome and fulfilling—but we were also competing for digital space with basically everybody else, so sometimes it felt like screaming into the void. But it was stuff that was so genuinely us. We did a music video in a studio with a crew that was hired, and the other ones that we did were very much akin to our DIY origins. We called in every favor from every friend who lived nearby and created these really elaborate, cool videos. We also did a livestream performance of the full record. Leaning into those things helped scratch that edge of needing to get the songs out and perform them—but it definitely felt like a very different experience for us.

Yeah, I remember talking to the Parquet Courts guys in early 2021 about a lot of the virtual stuff they were doing, and they were like, "At first we were into it, but we got sick of all of it pretty quickly." Was there a similar feeling you guys had during that time?
Brianna: For me, it was after the record came out, because so much of the stuff that we were doing was leading up to that. There was this wonderful sense of community, and it was the first time in my life that I could completely dedicate myself to doing art and Tigers Jaw all at the same time without having a million other things that would typically be happening if it wasn't a global pandemic. But when the record came out, it was like, "Oh, we can't have that in person." We'd already done multiple livestreams, and I was so sick of seeing myself in the monitor and talking to the camera. Some people can talk to the cameras, but I really struggle with that. Realizing, "Damn, I don't know when this is ever gonna go back to normal"—it shifted things for me.

Ben: With some of those things, there were diminishing returns. We'd do the first couple livestreams, and turnout was awesome, we raised a little money, but then you're given the same format over and over again—which, some people graciously love, but it also has to be engaging for you to be able to feel good about doing it. We started doing different themes, and that mixed it up for a little bit, but nothing compares to connecting with an audience in a room. That's what we could do at the time, and we made the most of it—but I'm very grateful to be putting out this record and have a whole laundry list of dates that we get to go out and do.

I don't think either of us are the type that's constantly writing music. Once you put all this time, energy, and creative effort into making a record, there's this refractory period where you're like, "Oh I'm a little bit tapped out. I need to live life and refill the tank of emotions, feelings, thoughts, stories and whatnot." Once that record was out, we had a couple b-sides that we released, and then we were very slowly collecting riffs and ideas.

We modified our live setup into a mobile recording setup for demos, which was super helpful. We tracked everything, so the songs would evolve over time. A couple of jams turned into songs, which was the first time that approach happened. It was really cool to have it all come together like that. We really took our time with it—we weren't rushing or up against any harsh record label schedule or anything like that. They were just like, "Do your thing. We took our time with it, and it was nice to have already spent a good amount of time working through these ideas so that we knew what we liked and didn't like.

You guys have had quite a few lineup changes over the years.
Ben: It's our first record as a five-piece in quite a bit. Teddy and Colin have been playing with us for a decade now, and Mark started playing with us in 2019. He did one tour before the pandemic happened. Once things started ramping back up and we were able to get back out on the road, Mark was more than willing to take the spot back up, and eventually we were like, "Yeah, this is our guy. Let's bring him into the fold." He had a folder of ideas, and some of them were a little bit out there, and some of them, right from the jump, we were like, "Oh, this is really inspiring."

Talk to me more about how the songwriting has evolved for you guys.
Ben: The only thing that's stayed the same for me, songwriting-wise, is that there's never one approach that works every time. I'm always just looking for that inspiration anywhere I can find it. I'm not really the type of person that can say, "I'm going to write songs for five hours today." I almost need to have an idle mind while I'm doing something else to spark an idea—and the ideas that happen like that stick with you, the ones where you know that you have something to work with.

When Tigers Jaw started, I initially was playing drums, and while putting together the first batch of songs for a record, I'd basically played the songs on demo recordings on every instrument. I had intimate knowledge of those songs. Depending on who was performing them on the record, there would be variances and different flavors brought, but my songwriting process would be very insular. That continued up through Spin, when me and Bree were able to work way more closely on some things. But it was still relatively insular, where I'd do full-band demos and then bring them to the table when I felt like they were "done."

I brought my songs to the table for I Won't Care How You Remember Me half-cooked, but for this record—apart from the rare cases where a song forms in your brain and you know where it needs to go—I brought them to everybody at a much earlier stage. It was a lot more collaborative in bringing more opinions into the fold. What should we do here? What should the dynamic be? What's missing? It was cool to have the opportunity, the time, and the musical trust to open things up a lot earlier and watch the songs evolve from more of a group standpoint.

Brianna: I was initially approached by Ben because he had a verse that needed lyrics and asked if I'd be open to giving it a go. It wasn't that I felt like I wasn't allowed to do that, but I was really happy to be there, and I'd never necessarily expressed myself through songwriting before. I've always been more of a visual artist. But there's a lot to say about my friendship with Ben, where if he believes in me to do it, I have confidence and belief in myself that maybe I wouldn't have had otherwise. Just knowing that he thinks I could do it—I might as well give it a shot.

With Spin, it was like, "Okay, well, it's just Ben and I." Ben, you really could've easily written an entire record, but he was like, "Well, write songs," and that was truly when I fell in love with it as this way to express myself in a different way than than how I had before. I don't really know how to play guitar, but I'd figure out chord progression and show Ben, and he'd put together actual chords. The collaborative nature of songwriting is something that I really love for my practice of it.

Lyrically, every record we've done since I started writing songs, I've learned more about myself through the process. I can't help but have some element of self-reflection, even if the lyrics aren't necessarily referencing me. But with this record, the songs were more hashed out than ever before, which felt amazing. Every time we do it, like I'm learning from that and then applying it to the next time.

Talk to me about what you've learned from each other when it comes to your relationship as bandmates.
Ben: We've spent so much time together on the road and in the studio, and I feel so lucky to have been in this bubble of really wonderful people for so long. I see my relationship with Brianna as siblings, essentially. We share all these common goals, we work together creatively, and we rely on each other for a lot. It's great to have each other's backs, especially for so long and through various changes in the band. We've been each other's constant through all of that. Luckily, we've also had quite a bit of consistency over the last decade with this band culminating with this record, which has felt really good.

This might sound counterintuitive, but with this record, there were moments that were maybe a little bit more tense than we expected. But it was just because we were all really passionate about different ideas and approaches. We were all working together in such a close capacity, and there would be five different opinions plus [Will Yip's] input as a producer. There would naturally be different times where it was unclear which route to go, so it took a lot of open discussion, which at first can seem kind of harsh. But once you get the ball rolling, it feels really good, because everybody gets to talk through it and say their piece. At the end of the day, everyone's chasing what the best idea for the song itself is, so it was really helpful to feel comfortable enough with each other.

Brianna: Over the years, it's not necessarily easy to be direct about how you're feeling, because it doesn't only impact you—it impacts everybody. But a practice that's really important in our band is trying to be honest and direct and not let things bottle up. There's always going to be some element of compromise, but when you're in a band with people where you all have the same goal and I trust everybody's vision, it's about being open to try something that maybe you wouldn't necessarily think would work. Maybe it's a compromise to your original idea, but in a way that makes it better.

You guys have been locked in for quite a while with Will, who's been a name for a minute. Walk me through what makes Will special to work with.
Brianna: My favorite thing about working with Will is that he understands the vision that you're trying to get across. He always says it's almost as though he's another band member, but in the end, he also wants the record to be what you want it to be. He's never going to pressure you to do something you don't want to do, but he's always suggesting things that are in line with what you do want to do. He has really good intuition, and he's a people person. We're all friends outside of this too, where there's this level of comfort that exists with him, while also having this nice creative collaborative relationship—like how it feels to be in a band.

Ben: Will's the busiest man I know, but he's also very selective about stuff that he takes on—so what he does take on is stuff that motivates him creatively. He puts himself in the headspace of that band for the duration of that recording project. He has this reverence for where the band has been, and he has these high hopes and ideas for where the band could go. He sees the full context, sometimes before the band does. It's really helpful to have somebody like him. He's so sharp and quick with ideas, and not just for the sake of an idea. He believes in guiding things to where they need to go.

His intuition is really spot-on, and it's really inspiring to work with him. He's this constant positive stream of creative energy, and it's infectious when you're around it. When we're working on a new record with him, I look forward to being in the studio every day, because I absorb some of that energy and it pushes me in a way that feels really good to step out of my comfort zone sometimes.

Talk to me about what the money's been like.
Ben: Whatever people's perception is of where our band is at, and for all the amazing things that we've accomplished, we're still hustling on the side and doing other things with the ultimate dream that, at some point, we can just focus on the band. But there's still potential for growth. A few months back, we played our largest headliner of all time, which was great. There are these benchmarks that we keep achieving in different ways. But when we get off tour, we're back to the other things that we do to help round things off and make ends meet.

Touring can be a great source of income, but there's a huge trade-off, which is obviously being away from home and not being able to engage with your family and friends in any sort of regularity. If we toured a lot more, even if there weren't radius clauses and things you have to think about where you don't want to play the same city too often—because then there might be less people showing up—you have to space things out here and there. Even if we were as busy as we could possibly be, it's so easy to get burnt out that way and make it not sustainable. So it's this balancing act of trying to work the correct amount where we can make a decent living off of it, but also not to the point where we are completely burning ourselves out.

Brianna: This is the first lead-up to an album where I've had a full-time 9-to-5 job, and it definitely was very difficult at times to have enough energy after the day to do the things that I wanted to do—which was anything Tigers Jaw-related. But I'm so grateful to still be able to do the band. To me, it's not about making money, but the dream is to be able to make your art. I'm grateful that the job I have allows me to still be able to do the band at the capacity we're doing. It is what it is. It's hard for anybody in this.

What's your guys' side gigs?
Ben: I've recently ventured into band management. For quite a few years, I was also one of the owner of a coffee and donut shop in Philadelphia. We did end up closing our doors about a year ago, but we were a business for about seven years.

Brianna: I bounce around, but my 9-to-5 is in sales at a screenprinting and embroidery company. The agreement when I was hired—because it's the company where we get our tour merch printed—was that I get to go on tour, and when I'm home, I'm working. I also teach private art lessons—one hour a week with each kid. It's really nice. I went to school and got my Pennsylvania art K-12 teaching cert, and then I got disillusioned by my first job. I was like, "Oh my gosh, 25 of them at once." The flexibility is important, and it's essential for a lot of musicians these days.