Wishy on Saint Etienne, Hacky Sacking, and Keeping the Beat Alive

This is a free post from Larry Fitzmaurice's Last Donut of the Night newsletter. Paid subscribers get one or two email-only Baker's Dozens every week featuring music I've been listening to and some critical observations around it, along with a Screen Memories column every one or two weeks where I write about stuff I watched lately.

Today's installment: Wishy are on an incredible run, no question about it. I thought last year's Planet Popstar EP was already a serious leveling-up when it came to the Indianapolis band's intoxicating pop-rock blend, but the just-released Nature's Pill feels like the most complete distillation of what this band is up to—baggy and radiant indie rock with a distinct rhythmic vibrancy, a style that sets themselves apart from most of their currently working peers. I had a great time chatting it up with Kevin Krauter and Nina Pitchkites about how this one came together, as well as their overall creative perspective when it comes to influence and synthesis. Check it out:

This new record is great, and it feels like it picks up right where the last EP left off. Let's talk about how it came together.
Nina: We wrote most of the songs over the last two years. Me and Kevin collaborated a lot more on a few songs on the album, whereas we normally write individually.

Kevin: The beginning stages of writing these songs definitely felt a lot more intentional compared to the last EP, since those were mostly B-sides and leftover ideas that we wrapped up in the studio. The EP felt more lower-stakes, and we were having a lot more fun in the studio with that one, taking more chances and thinking outside the box—and that energy carried over with this album, because we recorded it all in the same place with Ben Lumsdaine in his home studio. Every time we're in there, it feels like there's no rules. We're in this tiny little room, and there's not this expectation of how something's going to get done. We can do whatever we want, so it feels like the possibilities are endless.

You guys have cultivated a relatively unique sound amidst the current indie rock landscape, which at the moment seems mostly zeroed in on one or two very specific styles of rock music. Let's dig in more about your creative ethos and how the two of you work together in the context of Wishy.
Nina: The biggest ethos we live by is just that you can do whatever you want. At the end of the day, no one is boxing you in to a certain sound. When I first started doing solo music, I was writing songs that were very different from each other, and I was like, "I'm not really sure how this all fits together, but fuck it, I'm gonna do it anyway." I think Kevin feels similarly. We're like, "We feel like writing this way this day, and here it is."

Kevin: It's about whatever tickles our fancy—maybe it's a result of our ADHD. But neither of us have really fancied ourselves as trailblazers.We just both get bored easily. Even when I was a little kid, I'd daydream about starting a band one day and think to myself, "We'll have one song that sounds like this, another song that sounds like this"—plotting out that all the songs have to be a little bit different. That's what always stuck out to me when I'd listen to my older brother's CDs. It's the same band, the same album, but these songs sound different—and they're cool, good, and interesting. Something that I always like to see and hear from a band is that they're not just formulaic—but I did listen to a lot of formulaic music growing up. Sometimes the formula is good.

One band that came to mind while listening to this record is Saint Etienne, which is always a nice thing to be reminded of. Let's talk about their influence on your music.
Kevin: What I love the most about them is that some of their songs suck. [Laughs] Every album has some stinkers. I don't think I'd actually be like, "This song sucks, I'm turning it off"—but you can tell they don't really care and will just try anything. Some of it doesn't quite land, but some of it is like, "This is the greatest song I've ever heard in my life." The whole energy around that project feels very free, fun, and cheeky. There's a wink behind a lot of the music they make, and a humorous intent behind the lyrics that keeps everything very lighthearted. At no point do they take themselves too seriously. They're just like, "Let's make fun songs and accidentally write a masterpiece."

Nina: I got really into So Tough the last two years. The diversity of songwriting is very cool, as well as the sounds in general. To Kevin's point, they are doing whatever they want, and that's so refreshing. You can definitely tell when a band is not afraid to step outside the box—because, to your point Larry, I do think a lot of indie bands now, unfortunately, do subscribe to a lot of the same songs repackaged over and over. That's not to say that there's not tons of great bands out there that are making great songs—but, personally, I've always just wanted to make music that I would wanna dance to. I think some artists get caught up in the cycle of, "What's going to get playlisted, what does the general public want to hear?" In that way, you hold yourself back.

Kevin: That's a major anxiety that we both share—and because we worry about that, it inspires us to not write songs that way.

Nina, you mentioned making music you want to dance to, and I do feel like what you guys do is a little in line with dance music proper—but more in the Screamadelica way than, say, what was going on in the early-to-mid-2010s, where you had a bunch of guys with MPCs on stage calling themselves indie rock bands. Talk to me about incorporating a sense of groove into Wishy's music. It feels more prominent with every release that you guys put out.
Kevin: My first instrument was the drums, and then I played bass in a band for a long time—so the rhythm section, to me, is like home base. When I'm writing something, it's an extremely crucial element. I've also been experimenting in Logic, and when I'm making a demo, I'll kind of procrastinate on writing the lyrics and chord structure and hyperfixate on getting the drum sound just right—because that, to me, is the most immediately gratifying thing. What hooked me the most when I was younger listening to music is how the drums sounded and how everything fell rhythmically. I love where it's punchy and where it's softer. That's what sets apart a really good song. Some of my favorite music—even if it doesn't have drums in it at all—has a sense of a rhythmic intent that ties it together. We both love dance-y, fun, cool production, and it took a second for us to figure out a way to blend it all together, because Nina's music before this band was very dream pop-y with minimal production, but also with a dance-y vibe. When I first got to know her, I was like, "I love that vibe." I started getting into more electronic production, even though I've always felt like I could never make a techno or house track—I'm just so stuck in the rock world. It's been about treading lightly until we've gotten a little more comfortable with it.

Nina: We're both just huge fans of fast-paced dance music. A lot of what we listen to on tour is techno-adjacent—which, it can get boring to just listen to indie rock all the time. We both had a time in our lives where we got more interested in listening to more upbeat music, which is refreshing,

Kevin: We both went through that similar trajectory of being exposed to '90s shoegaze and college rock—but it wasn't until I heard Screamadelica, Chapterhouse, or Happy Mondays where I was like, "Oh, this is the shit that's really fire." I fuck with Slowdive and My Bloody Valentine, but the My Bloody Valentine songs I fuck with the most are the ones with interesting drum production—not that I don't absolutely love like a driving rock beat underneath a guitar-heavy song. But when they throw in a random drum sample, it makes me like so stoked to hear—and, all of Screamadelica, there's songs on that album that sound straight-up like the Rolling Stones, and then there's others that sound like fucking roll-your-ass-off shit.

Speaking more about older music and how the influences sneak in, I was very taken aback by the Velvet Underground callback in "Mona Lisa." Talk to me about that.
Kevin: I was looking for a third section for that song, trying to figure out whether I should add a bridge or something. I did the little chord change and thought, "You know what? How about we just fucking throw in 'Femme Fatale'?" Then we were like, "Maybe we should change one or two words in the lyrics so we don't actually get in trouble—but everyone knows what it is. I'm not the biggest Velvet Underground devotee. But that album, when I actually listened to it in college—which is later than a lot of people—that's one of the most crucial songs. It's part of the American songbook for any sort of indie music, a very important cultural touchstone.

Let's talk about the lyrics on this record. Where do the two of you find common ground, and where does it diverge?
Nina: A lot of the common ground is just having failed relationship experiences. Normally, when songwriting, I'll start with chords and a melody and then try to dredge things from the inner workings of my mind that are important to me and fit with the overall theme of the record. I have some lyrics about the state of limerence, and feeling a little bit of alienation. There's obviously so many feelings that go into any record.

Kevin: Nina and I both tend to err on the side of vagueness rather than direct exposition of a song's emotional content. We're both a little more removed from that. We tend to paint more of an abstract picture with things. But a lot of life happens in the span of like two to three years, and being in this band together over that time and honing our creative voice together really contributed to the overall lyrical content. With this album, we were trying to be more intentional about having more fun with the language that we use on some of these songs—being a bit more cheeky. When I look back on songs I've written in the past, the one regret I ever really have is feeling like I played it too safe on something. I always want to take more of a risk, because that's usually what produces the most interesting stuff.

There's a quote in the album bio that caught my interest from you, Kevin. You say, "Being in an indie band feels bizarre when the world is on fire." I'm curious to hear the two of expand on that feeling.
Kevin: It's tough to say, and I want to be careful not to say too much—because, what is there to say? I make music because I feel compelled to, and I'm sure Nina could say the same. People believe in us, help us bring it to market, get it in people's ears, book these tours, and get us to the level that we're at. We're ultimately trying to operate from a place of gratitude and be delicate. When you're in the public eye in any regard, you feel this responsibility to the moment, especially nowadays with social media. There's this implicit expectation—mostly self-induced—of, "I need to speak on the issues of today. I need to have a position. I need to have a platform." It can feel really exhausting—not that we have so much to complain about ourselves. We come from a wildly privileged position, generally speaking. It's more just an acknowledgement that we're not trying to take ourselves too seriously or push too hard of a platform, and understanding that, unfortunately, there's still a place for fun indie rock music. [Laughs] I don't know if that's unfortunate, but if it can bring anyone joy and alleviate a little bit of suffering in the world, that's really all that matters.

Nina: I mean, that is the sole purpose of art—and I think it's honestly important to make art when the world is on fire. It can inspire hope for other people that there's still beauty in the world outside of the political war machine. I do sometimes feel the way where, like, we're about to release a single, and there's a genocide going on. Why the fuck would this matter? But it's important to make art in spite of it all, because what else is there? Music is the best way for me to connect with other people, and I'm trying to be more grateful and aware—even at our shows, when we've had a long tour. Maybe I don't want to play that night, but when we get up there and see how much people are connecting over our music, I don't think anything tops that feeling. I've definitely had periods of feeling disconnected where I'm like, "What is this all even for?" And then you have people coming to talk to you at the merch table with tears in their eyes, telling you how much your music means to them—and you're like, "Wow, this is really what this is about." The artists of whom that's not their foundation can typically be a flash in the pan, because ultimately their values don't hold up over time.

What's your guys' relationship with being online and social media these days?
Nina: Posting specifically on like the Wishy pages is like pulling teeth a lot of the time. I know that it's our label manager's job to be like, "Hey, post this," and I know it's a necessary evil to be doing these things—and you're doing this so you can get more exposure and everyone can eventually quit their day job. I see the end goal there. But actually getting into the minutiae of it can be kind of exhausting. We try to just post as authentically as you can.

Kevin: It's a learning process—a lifelong thing that you have to figure out your own relationship to, because it's so easy to get bogged down. Like Nina said, just writing a caption for a post can feel like pulling teeth sometimes. But sometimes, if you're in the mindset of "Let me just have fun with this," then it actually can be a really fun thing to engage with. But it can so easily feel vapid, especially if you're subject to the landscape itself, which is more often than not very joyless. So the relationship is a bit fraught.

What do you guys do in terms of leisure time on the road?
Nina: I personally like to go to a lot of national monuments and roadside stuff.

Kevin: Making time for that stuff goes a long way.

Nina: We play hacky sack a lot.

Kevin: The hacky sack has been a foundational element of our touring situation. If we didn't have that, we'd probably be at each other's throats way more.

Nina: We love the beach. We like walking around wherever we're at, finding coffee shops and restaurants. I really personally just try to take advantage of the time and most cities we're in, but sometimes you're so burnt out.

Kevin: It's easier said than done.

Nina: Sometimes you post up in the green room, lay on the couch, and go on to the next city. I try to just be grateful for the time that we have in some of these cities—because it could be that Wishy gets canceled and we don't get to tour anymore. For what? I don't know yet. [Laughs]

Kevin: For me, a big thing has been finding moments to take time by myself, because I'm a hella extroverted person, so I'll just not really think about spending time alone—and when you're on tour, it's even harder to do, because you're around everyone in the band all the time. But once you start finding those little moments of ambiguous time—like, we've soundchecked, we've got an hour and a half 'til we play, and everyone's like, "What are we going to do for dinner?"—I'll sometimes sneak off by myself and go treat myself to a little solo dinner. Honestly, that can really turn my mood around sometimes.

Let's talk movies. What have the two of you seen lately?
Nina: I just watched Obsession for the first time last night. I know everyone's been raving about it—and honestly, for good reason. I really appreciate that the initial production of the movie was just by two YouTubers who love horror movies. It's awesome to see something great come from not a major production company, and the acting is really good. I was actually kind of scared.

Kevin: I recently watched Barry Lyndon with my parents. I'd seen it myself earlier this year, but I watched it when I was really sick and laid up in bed, so I took an edible and watched the whole movie. I was like, "That was incredible. I have to watch it again." So I watched half of it with my parents recently, and they really liked it too. We still need to finish it, but that movie is incredible. Honestly, just a lot even funnier than I remembered like watching it a week ago.

It's a very funny movie!
Kevin: It's a hilarious movie. I grew up watching Coen brothers movies with my parents and siblings. O Brother Where Art Thou? is a huge foundational text for everyone in my family. We used to watch it once a year. Barry Lyndon has a very similar feel to a Coen brothers movie—the characters, dialogue, different accents, and idiosyncrasies.

Nina, on the subject of Curry Barker, have you seen Milk and Cereal?
Nina: I haven't. I didn't know who these people were until I was Wikipedia'ing the movie last night. But that's definitely on my list. I follow a couple short-form horror content people on TikTok. I'm always like, "Damn, they should really make a movie." I also think it's sick that like Zach Cregger is such a good horror movie director now. I can't wait to see what he does next. I saw Weapons last year and that was really good. But I definitely need to tap into more of the independent YouTube horror short films.

Yeah, when it comes to Cregger, you see something like The Civil War on Drugs, and you're like, "Yeah, of course this guy's a good filmmaker." He's very good at putting this stuff together.
Nina: I inherently believe that funny people make the best horror movies. Jordan Peele makes great horror movies. There's like a direct correlation between being funny and doing horror and suspense really well. Maybe it's because there's an element of comedy in scary situations, which makes it even more chilling.