Blue Hawaii on Trance, Tech, and the Queer Community's Embrace
This is a free post from Larry Fitzmaurice's Last Donut of the Night newsletter. Paid subscribers get a paid-only Baker's Dozen every week featuring music I've been listening to and some critical observations around it. I'm running a 30% off sale for annual subscriptions, which you can grab here while it lasts.
Ladyland Festival is going down in Greenpoint this weekend, and I do believe it's one of the best lineups NYC-based or otherwise that I've seen in quite some time...still plenty of tix available if you haven't grabbed yours yet, I'll be there both nights, so if you see me, say hi (or not, whatever works for you).
In conjunction with the fest, I did a few interviews with some of the good folks on the lineup that are running today and tomorrow. First up is the estimable Berlin-slash-Montreal duo Raphaelle "Ra" Standell-Preston and Alexander "Agor" Cowan of Blue Hawaii, whose just-released Diamond Shovel might actually be their best record to date. I've known about Blue Hawaii for a while but I think they really stepped things up in the last five years by going in a more explicitly clubby direction, and Diamond Shovel's dewy trance vibes are exactly the kind of thing that I adore. Can't wait to hear the new material Under the K Bridge tomorrow night...until then, enjoy my in-depth conversation with them about where they're at, where they've been, and where they might be going next...
How's Berlin, Agor?
Agor: It's been good. I've just been super busy. I was in Milan this week doing some writing with Måneskin, who are quite popular here.
What's it like writing for other people?
Agor: Oh, it was such a good experience. I haven't done very much of it because my music career has been completely built off my own projects and personal connections. But this was such a crazy good experience. I was working with the main ghost-producers for David Guetta. They were so talented. The amount of stuff that I learned by being there...I was surrounded by a bunch of people who were really good at the exact same thing that I'm good at, so it just felt super-challenging for a change, like attending an elite school or something. It could've been be awkward if you didn't like the people. But we all got along really well.
I love this new record. I think it's really great.
Ra: Sorry, Larry, can I just say one thing?
Yeah.
Ra: I'm just shocked that David Guetta has those producers.
Agor: Oh, they all do.
Ra: What? That's insane.
Agor: Everyone does, at that level.
Yeah, I just assume they do. The first time I found out about ghost-producers, I was doing a story on Hudson Mohawke. Ross had mentioned to me that all those guys have ghost-producers, and I was like, "That actually makes a lot of sense." at that point.
Agor: It just gives you more chances to have something that kind of clicks, you know?
Yeah, if you look at it as just something that's part of the industry, it's always better to give people credit than it is to just have them keep hiding in the shadows.
Agor: It's kind of like Andy Warhol vibes. They're making a product. You just need people to keep it going.
I've been very into the trajectory of your guys' music over the 2020s so far. Tell me about what went into this new one.
Agor: We've been around for a little while at this point, and one of the coolest things about being a group for this long, especially at the level that we're at, is that we're able to try out a bunch of different things. This is something we're just in now for our whole lives. There's just no reason for us to not do it, and we love it. Obviously, we've always been influenced by European electronic music, and we've always said that, but the music here influenced our stuff, and we've just been speeding up the tempo just like everyone else—but still putting in our own brand of singing and songwriting. One of the tracks that was tough to get right was this track called "Flower." The track before it is called "Bedroom Flowers," and it's just Ra playing the acoustic guitar, which is this amazing reference to the earliest days of Blue Hawaii. To hear it go into this techno track makes you think about what a song is, what production is.
The record took us a long time to put together. We had a lot of personal challenges. It took us a year to get it out because we were working with a new label. It's a triumph for us to be able to try out these new genres in a way that people are able to support it—and they're just along for the ride. It's also an homage to our live set. I'm really proud of it.
Ra: Making this record was a blessing, but also a curse. It was rather difficult, because there were these really big life-changing moments while trying to balance making a record, or wanting to make a record—coming in and doing it on days where like we didn't necessarily feel like we wanted to be doing it, or when we were just feeling bogged down by whatever life was throwing at us during that year and a half. I'd been going back and forth between Berlin and Montreal, so that allowed for us to create and write differently while split up over a much longer period of time. Usually we'll just rent a cabin in Quebec, put the pedal to the metal, and pop out a record. This was a lot slower of a burn.
So it was made in Berlin, Montreal, and Vancouver, and it was also made by sending stuff back and forth, which is way different than anything we've ever done before. I spent so much time in Berlin. I had a partner who was German, so I was visiting a lot more—and I also just wanted to finally know where Ag has been living. It really rubbed off on me—how much faster everything is when you go to a club. It's such a different tempo than American clubs. We just did a couple of shows in America and we were like, "We need to slow down our set." But in Berlin, we played a set where we started at 140, 145 BPM and went up to, like, 180.
Agor: It's actually amazing that those differences still exist, because with global culture, Instagram, and TikTok, in different places in the world you find people that are more similar than you probably would've [otherwise]. One of the joys of playing music live is being like, "Okay, what's our Kansas City set going to look like, and how's that going to look different from playing a rave in Rotterdam?" It's night and day, and it's amazing. There's so much to say about culture and what people think about it, and I feel like it's our job to figure those things out.
One thing that we've really embraced is the acceptance from the queer community. That's been a really big thing for us. It's been the thing that's kept Blue Hawaii going—our lifeblood and our reason to exist. I especially noticed it in America, going around to those places in the South—Atlanta, Kansas City—and bringing out the queer community. How much this music means to the people, and everyone's singing along—it's kind of iconic, it gives Blue Hawaii so much meaning, and I think that that really transcends the genre.
So, yeah, we sped things up, I bet with our next thing, we're probably going to just do something different and what people might not expect. It'll still be dance-y. We probably won't just stick to 150 BPM trance. It'll be something different.
Tell me more about getting support from the queer community. When did you notice that taking effect on your career?
Agor: I think it was with "I Felt Love," right, Ra?
Ra: Yeah. Also, I'm queer, and I just wanted to say that the queer community that has supported us has also just really helped me to accept that side of myself, because I'd really turned that side of myself off for a while. That's been so beautiful. I feel held and seen by our fans to be who I am. But I think it was also when we did a super sexy photo shoot for a record cover where I'm topless and Ag is topless, looking hot as fuck. It's a super queer cover.
Agor: And there's more where that came from. I just want to do that more and more. It's so much fun. I love wearing big white shirts, cargo pants, and sparkly belts. We used to wear makeup. I feel like we've always not taken ourselves too seriously and had fun with it. I think it kind of makes us underground, in a way. Like, we never really broke in the way that a lot of our peers did. But one thing that people say to me all the time is that we're also doing something right, because people want to see us and we're still doing our career after all these years.
We never really like exploded in the way that, like, Grimes or Mac DeMarco did—so many of my friends that have gotten really famous. But they also say to me all the time, "You have something that we're not sure that we have. You should be really proud that you're able to keep this thing afloat for 10-plus years." It's so crazy. Our first record was in 2010.
Raph was expressing to me about how she's trying to do some writing on her own, and she was talking about how it's hard to think about what's cool and what's not cool. That that comes down a lot to production, and what genre it's going to be—but at the core of it there is something that we can probably work with our whole lives, which is her singing and songwriting. That shines through more or less depending on the track, and that's something that I'm always so interested to explore as the music industry changes.
This writing session in Milan, we were using so much AI to convert our own voices to [sound like] other people. There was so much of that intelligent AI stuff going on, but I was thinking about the idea that you have the kind of track that you want to make, the words that you use, and your approach and style. The whole idea of the project is still kind of up to us as humans—how we want to make that work. For Blue Hawaii, it's going to be fun and queer, and it's probably going to try to [capture the] zeitgeist anyway—to bring different worlds together.
I think, for us, it's just really important to remember who we are and not worry too much about that. We don't take ourselves too seriously, and that's been a big part of it. We don't feel too frustrated about not being the headliner on the bill, because people who know, know about us.
You mentioned AI—I wanted to talk to you guys a bit more about music and tech at large. You're currently signed to Helix, which is essentially an NFT label.
Ra: They do an NFT thing?
Agor: What's the NFT thing that they do? Can you explain that? I actually didn't know about that. Do people still do NFTs?
To be quite honest, I don't think so. I'm going to pull up the language on the website now and read it back. "The Helix Records Genesis pass will mainly act as a membership for the Helix Records ecosystem, granting holders access to exclusive digital & in-real-life utilities, some of which will be more common, others ultra-rare. Holding the Genesis pass will instantly teleport you into the Helix ecosystem, where you’ll get rewarded with utilities on an ongoing and almost limitless basis, and get the chance to make unique and incredible experiences." Apparently the NFT is, like, an mp3 and a mintable Bitcoin or something. I'll be really honest, I never understand this shit.
Ra: It sounds like Fyre Festival. [Laughs]
Agor: It's interesting. I'm not saying it's wrong—I don't know who really wants to do that. What's interesting about the technology, just to make it more general again, is that you don't know what's gonna hit and what's not gonna hit. It seems a little silly to us right now, and who knows—maybe it doesn't take off. But I'm kind of down to hear about it, because you never really know like what's gonna stick and what's not gonna stick. I'm pretty interested to see how this all changes. Back when Blue Hawaii started, people weren't even streaming music. I don't even think Instagram existed. Again, one of the things that's cool is that we're able to play these different things that are available—whether it's an NFT, like how Helix does, or using AI in our production, or the new tools as they become available.
Who knows how music will sound like? When synths first came out, it really changed music. Everyone's using the same tools—you hear Auto-Tune in every genre, pop and electronic music is ubiquitous, rock is kind of gone. Who knows?There might be some kind of development that also changes the way music sounds, and I hope that we could be there to try it out.
I hear that. I do feel like the music industry is like a really easy target for a lot of tech culture thinking. A lot of the people who have money and make decisions in the music industry are pretty easily taken by new things.
Ra: I have more of a pessimistic view with tech. I don't know if I'm going to shoot myself in the foot by saying this, but when you read me the thing about the NFTs...for me, tech, especially with how it's incorporated into the music industry, everyone's just trying to make a buck. They will absolutely water down the product, or the integrity, to make a buck. With Spotify and stuff, where it's like, "Oh, you can upload videos and interact with your fans," all this stuff is putting so much pressure on the artist to constantly be a marketing tool. I found that over my career, never during a campaign as much as we are doing now and in the last like five years, have I ever had to wear a 24/7 content marketing hat. It's not very healthy for the artist, or for creativity. For me, personally, I have to really cut myself off with social media when I go into writing. I find technology and the selling of music very pervasive, and a flattener for creativity, honestly.
Agor: One of the things that's changed the most in our career, and you can obviously speak to this too, is the way of music marketing, and the press and media. It's so crazy. I was at [Brutalismus 3000 member Theo Zeitner's] house this morning and I said I had this call later, and we were talking about Pitchfork. He was like, "I always wanted Brutalismus to be on Pitchfork and get rated." We were talking about how much that doesn't really like matter anymore, especially compared to how it used to. It's crazy how like that all got democratized in this crazy way. That part of it changed so much where the music itself is basically just ads too. Everyone just makes these one-minute long hooks that can be on TikTok. [Laughs]
Ra: People do compose music from that standpoint. I've done some writing with people where it's like, "This is the TikTok hook," You'll have that conversation! That's crazy. But it's also allowed for more niche artists to be found and have a platform—[music] that Pitchfork, The New York Times, or Rolling Stone or whatever would totally turn an eye from. But then there's these companies that are making money off of the content that artists are creating, and they're not being paid for it, and then the selling of information to advertising companies...at the end of the day, the creators and the artists get the short end of the stick, and the people at the top are just raking it in while experimenting.
It does seem like being a creator in the music industry right now is like gambling—and, obviously, gambling is becoming extremely normalized in culture right now.
Ra: It is?
In the U.S. it is. Everything is gambling now. You can even gamble at—have you guys ever been at Dave and Buster's?
Ra: No, I'm gonna write it down. What is Dave and Buster's?
It's basically an adult arcade mixed with an Applebee's type restaurant. You can get bombed and play Donkey Kong. It's been around for a very long time in the U.S. They recently introduced the ability to bet on their arcade games while people are playing them.
Agor. That's crazy.
Yeah, it's dark! Everything is gambling now.
Ra: What's going to happen to the friendships of people who get so blasted and put a bunch of money on [a game]? There's gonna be some big fights at Dave and Buster's.
One thing I really like about this record is how trance-y it is. As somebody who really likes trance music, I'm always like, "Maybe trance is coming back." But I do feel like trance is more in the air these days. I've been listening to a lot of Marlon Hoffstadt, especially. Have you guys heard his stuff?
Agor: Oh yeah. Really good stuff.
What is it about trance that you guys think is so appealing to people right now? I've always loved trance since I heard it on the radio when I was, like, 13 years old. It almost seems like an "if you know, you know" kind of thing.
Ra: When you just said that, I started thinking of myself in the '90s as a little girl. I remember trance music feeling like a cloud—and it still feels like that for me, especially with the vocals. When it's trance music with vocals, it's this enveloping cloud, and everything sounds so sparkly. As a singer, I feel like I'm levitating up into the clouds. I know that sounds really out there, but for me, that's what it feels like singing behind that kind of beat. I can imagine. When there's that lush production with synths, and it's fast, and you have a really strong melody...it's like goosebumps. I love it. I actually feel like so much of pop music right now is leaning really into trance.
Agor: Yeah, it's great. I have a theory why people are getting into trance—or getting out of it, depending on where you're at. It's an electronic music genre where melody, chords, harmonic structure, and chord changes are embraced, because most genres of electronic music are built completely around rhythm where the notes don't really matter at all. There isn't really much movement, it stays on one thing, and a lot of it almost has nothing at all—and if it does, it's just a really simple minor note or something.
With trance, you're able to do these chord progressions, and people like it because it reminds them of the way music used to be, where the structure came from the chords rather than from the rhythm—but that can also be something that can take away from its powerfulness. If you hear too much trance on the dancefloor, it can be too much information. All those notes and chords can be overwhelming. It's the kind of thing that makes trance get old, but it also makes it perfectly suited to doing a lot of pop music. One of the songs that we were listening to a lot while making this record was this Calvin Harris song with Ellie Goulding. It's so trance-y. I probably don't like it anymore, but I was like, "Oh, there's one way you can do that."
On the ground here, it's already going out a little bit. Europe does electronic music [trends] a few years before the U.S., and then it gets closer to the U.S. It's kind of cool that people discover things at different times. I'm just wondering what we're gonna do next. It probably won't be trance.
Ra: Well, I don't know. You just made such a good point with how much melody is in trance music. You can't play too much of it on the dancefloor, especially if it's a proper DJ gig. We find that, when we're crafting our sets, we place those songs in very intentional places, because it's just way too much information. But there's also that cloud that I was talking about. Being enveloped by a cloud is very much like being enveloped by melody. I come from a traditional songwriting background on the guitar—that's how i started. So I really like that aspect of trance that's very much songwriting, and Agor is an incredible producer, so you can make these gorgeous sounds. I don't think we're moving too far away from trance. I think it'll pop up on the [next] record in the way that it has on this record—and on other records too, where we just have those diva moments that I'm always gonna push for.
Agor: As a producer, one thing I notice is that all these genres are quite formulaic. There's rules for doing them, and then you make them original—the way the basslines work, the way that the kick should be mixed, it should be this tempo—and then you make them original. You can really make something special that stands out. One of the things I found confusing when making this record was ldoing it from a very formulaic standpoint, where I'd start with making the different patterns before thinking about the concept behind the song. I think that's cool, and it comes back to what I love this about our project. We can try different things, and people support it.
Ra: Ag and I were talking about our next record, and so many times he's mentioned having like a very clear intention behind it. There's a certain kick for house, a certain bassline, certain chord progressions. You fall into that and are like, "Okay, I'm doing a house track—what am I going to do on top of it?" It's about very intentional with what it is that we want to do next time.
Agor, there's been a lot of movement in Berlin amongst artists regarding the government's attempted crackdown against vocalized pro-Palestinian support from artists. What have you witnessed there as someone who's living in the city?
Agor: When Ra was here, we went to a demonstration and she got the flags and stuff. The support for Palestine, I'm definitely on that side, but I don't really know how to answer that question properly.
Ra: It's a super important cause for me. Oh my God, I feel like I'm gonna cry.
I understand. It's all been really upsetting to witness.
Ra: Yesterday, I was getting out my air conditioning unit, because we had a huge heat wave. I've been really trying not to use it this summer. I have many Palestinian flags, so I put them in my mailbox last night. There was quite a lot of pushback in Montreal a little while ago, and I remember just being kind of scared of bringing my flags out.
I can't really speak to the German music scene, because I'm not there—but when we did shows in Germany, I did wear my Palestinian pin like I also did in America, and I actually had a lot more discussions with people in America about it—people thanking me for wearing it, I guess, and giving it visibility. I didn't have a single conversation about it when I was in Berlin. But we did go to a demonstration there, and I know that there has been [support]. I wonder if maybe Ag is not necessarily surrounded by people showing more support for Palestine.
Agor: I'm just, embarrassingly, not as tuned into it as I should be.
Ra: Well, I did notice how it really feels very silenced in Germany. When I was there in Berlin, there was very little visibility. We played at a 68-hour party—we didn't go to the whole thing, just the last night—but I ended up staying there the whole night after our set with my pin on, and I didn't have a single conversation with anybody about it. I can't speak to it too much because I'm not there, but just from my observations, they're not necessarily talking about it.
Earlier in this interview you guys mentioned some of your peers you came up with. Tell me more about the community you came up in musically, and how you've seen it change since.
Ra: It's very scattered now—everybody's in a lot of different places. There's the TOPS crew—Jane Penny and David Carriere. Jane's back in Montreal now. Rollie from Cadence Weapon is out in Hamilton, but I talk with him regularly. It was so integral for us at the very beginning and at that age, being surrounded by really brilliant artists and all of us workshopping stuff and showing each other things. There was a lot more of a loft party scene here, which has really been cracked down on. But now it's raves, as opposed to shows. You had the birth of Moonshine, but it totally sold out. I went to their New Year's thing, and it was just total crap. There's other underground things that are popping up, but it's all centered around dance music now. That's a huge shift.
I've also noticed, just after the pandemic, that people don't want to watch things as much they want to experience things. They want to be a part of an experience and let loose, and dance music allows for that. I've seen such a rise in dance and like rave culture, which is something that I've noticed in Montreal. I don't know what's going on in the rock and indie scenes so much, because that's not really a world that I'm in right now. Braids is taking a I-don't-know-how-long break right now, too. A lot of the scene is very much focused on like dance culture now.